Urban Innovate TALKS

Henriette Cornet (00:14)
Hi everyone and welcome to this new episode of Urban Innovate TALKS And today it's my honor to welcome Alex Hansen from Holon. And the reason why I really wanted to have Alex with us today is because he's the director of sales in the U.S. So Holon is a shuttle manufacturer and I'm really looking forward to the conversation with you Alex today.

Because with my European background, so just to put a bit of context why I wanted to have you on board, with my European background and working in the field of autonomous vehicles for a while, we had so many deployments in Europe with shuttles, many different manufacturers and some have worked, some have not. But in general, I really like the work that they have done and I think we should acknowledge past companies working in this difficult area.

of shuttles, but for me it was great to see these vehicles on the road because they really had the mindset of public transport, public transit, and have the shared mobility at the core of them. And what we see also from Europe when we think about U.S. development, we see a lot of robotaxi with single occupancy vehicles. And then I'm looking forward to see more shared vehicles.

more vehicles integrated to public transport. So that's really along these lines that I would like to talk to you today and your view on what makes Holon unique. Also a bit of history would be great so that we get to know better what Holon is doing. And mostly there are very exciting things coming in Jacksonville, Florida that I hope we will dig into detail So Alex, welcome.

Alex Hansen (01:52)
Thank you very much. you for having me and thanks for the introduction. Of course, also here, I think, can't hide my background, so I have a German accent, so living in the United States for quite some time, but also having, of course, the background with the European public transport and how things are utilized there. So I think we have a couple of things here in common when it comes to that. Thank you.

Henriette Cornet (02:14)
Great. So let's start And can you present Holon, what Holon is, maybe really its origin and a your vision in general. Let's keep it high level for a start and after we will dig into detail. But where does it come from?

Alex Hansen (02:28)
Absolutely. yeah, Holon actually I would say is a company that could be rather classified as a startup, which that means of course we are still a young company. I think a little bit older than three years. We had our market introduction at CES in 2023. So I would say of course startup character now we grow to up to 200 employees globally, focused in Germany and in the United States right now.

And when I talk about startup, of course, I think what that means is we are very lean company, right? So especially with the innovation, the vision that we have, we have to be lean. We have to make quick decisions. We need to be close to customers. We need to have our market knowledge, our customer feedback integrated into our engineering activities very quickly. I think we have here a lot of these things that are very important to be successful in this emerging market.

On the other hand, I would say we have a parent company which is Benteler. Benteler is very well established automotive supplier for very complex parts. We talk about chassis components, structures. So there's a lot of background when it comes to manufacturing industrialization. And that's why I like to say we combine a little bit best of both worlds. We have Holon as the young, innovative, ambition company with the foundation of a

billion dollar company established across the world with 23,000 employees globally, existing processes, knowledge about supply chain, knowledge about manufacturing. So I think these two elements are very essential to be successful with our vision as Holon.

Henriette Cornet (04:00)
I see. And so how many shuttles do you have already? I guess most of them are in Europe. Where is the current development? What's happening there? Maybe if we start there and we keep the U.S. for later.

Alex Hansen (04:06)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, no happy happy to start there because I think yes, of course Something that we like to say is I mean right now German engineered American made and where is this coming from? Of course, we're gonna talk about the plant as well as you already mentioned But our product engineering our product development is right now happening in Germany Yeah, so our headquarters located in Paderborn in North Rhine-Westphalia. We have our engineering team sitting so they are heavily focused right now in the

product development in the product maturity process. Something that I think is important to explain is when we talk about automotive grade, automotive quality, safety, all these type of things, it's not just the manufacturing process as well. It starts already with the product development itself. What are the processes to get a product at a maturity level and at a readiness level that really fulfill

customer expectations, safety requirements, all these things and of course this all under a scalable solution. So with that being said, right now we have prototypes that are driving on proving grounds. So what we are doing here of course our vehicle is a fully autonomous shuttle. of course something that will integrate a self-driving technology.

and it won't have any steering wheel or brake pedals, nothing like that anymore. So it's really a purpose-built version for public transport. And before we let this on the road, before we're to start testing there, we want to have a couple of safety and validations done in a secured location. And therefore we have right now our testing going on on dedicated proving grounds, mainly in Europe.

And then we talk about any kind of testing for dynamic. So does the vehicle accelerate, brake, turn in the way we want it? So we talk about of course any kind of testing that is happening related to weather conditions. mean testing on snow, heavy rain, in the heat.

In parallel to that, of course, we talk about the new technology elements like the self driving, the batteries that we integrate. we actually don't develop our own self driving system. We got to work with a company called Mobileye. I think most of the people here listening to this know about them. So very well experienced company over 25 years in the business.

And of course, with all this knowledge and the experience they gained and the development they do, we see them as our partner for a level four autonomous vehicle.

Henriette Cornet (06:33)
I see.

so staying in the topic of the value chain, what exactly is Holon doing along as entire kind of ecosystem until a passenger can get into a vehicle, from, so what's exactly, where's the positioning of Holon?

Alex Hansen (06:48)
Yeah, so you use the word ecosystem and this is how we understand our mobility solution, right? And we are a part of that. So with the expertise that we have through our company, Benteler right? Over the last 80 years in the automotive industry, the complexity with components, the fact that over the last 10 years, there was a lot of work on behalf of existing OEMs to develop entire platforms

So we decided to be able to build our own vehicle. And not doing this in the classic automotive where I think there's already an existing market and well established players. But with the change from automotive to mobility, we saw the chance to be a new solution and a new player for that.

With necessary APIs and any integrations or interfaces, of course we provide the platform that for example fleet management systems can collaborate with our vehicle.

transportation authorities of course can utilize it also then through access the vehicle maybe we talk about any kind of in cabin monitoring or any kind of remote assistance. So I mean the easiest way I like to describe it is if you look at the aviation industry and you look into Airbus and Boeing they are also focused on the airplane. They make sure that this is fully functional but then I don't know Delta Airlines, Lufthansa.

the airlines actually take over and operate. And of course to keep this parallel or this example, we're to be focused on that. And then you have the transportation authorities, you have other players that are of course then taking the part of the airline, so to speak. ⁓

Henriette Cornet (08:23)
Yeah, that's a good comparison.

think it will help those who are not very familiar with this entire, with the value chain. I got it. We move now to the U.S. and what's your plan here and what's your vision, your ambition.

Alex Hansen (08:31)
Okay, thank you.

Henriette Cornet (08:38)
we can start on your immediate plan with this new factory that is super promising, but I also want to hear the big vision behind and where you ideally see Holon in five, 10 years from now. What would be the vision? So I let you decide where you want to start.

Alex Hansen (08:55)
No, thank you. No, and of course, happy to speak about the U.S. since this is kind of the sales territory I'm acting here, I'm working on. So, I would say for the target markets that we have as Holon, which is the United States, Europe and Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, we see definitely the U.S. market as the early market. First adopter, and this for a couple of reasons.

I think there's already a lot of regulatory alignment or let's say approvals to have autonomous vehicles on public roads. I mean, we see that of course right now with the Waymo's, the Zoox right? So of course these are robotaxis and this is a different use case than what we are looking at. But overall I would say self-driving technology is already...

possible to integrate into existing infrastructure. And of course, more important probably is also that there is a ridership already in the United States who is willing to step into such a vehicle. So of course, we can have phenomenal sales with the transportation authorities, with any kind of potential customer out there, if their end customer is not willing to step into this vehicle.

I mean, we don't create a benefit or nobody is really looking into this from a business point of view. So with that being said,

Henriette Cornet (10:11)
I

see that if I enter upon that, I think we discussed it before. I have this view with public acceptance that if the system works, people won't really care if there is a driver or not. That's really my theory behind it. And we see it here in San Francisco with the Waymo

Alex Hansen (10:22)
Mm-hmm.

Henriette Cornet (10:26)
People forget of being in autonomous vehicles. are not really interested into it because it works, so to say. Since it works, you just forget about it. And I'm sure it will be the same with your product, with your system that want to move around and they will just trust. If they trust the system, everything will be fine. You know what mean? I don't really believe in a fear of automation, et cetera, but the future will tell with everything that will happen

Alex Hansen (10:50)
I agree. And I mean, that's why we also focused of course on the product itself, right? On the vehicle. So there's more to come and I'm happy to talk about that in a minute. But just for us making sure there's a vehicle out there that fulfill all these things that you just said, yeah, is I think a big task already. And we see ourselves being capable to accomplish that, right? And I think Mr. Nat Ford so JTA CEO.

I think he likes to say, I want to quote him here, saying, technology always wins, right? So with that being said, I think we always have here the situation where technology is something that brings a benefit, that makes things easier. When we talk about, of course, accessibility and these type of things, with the technology that we have nowadays, we can provide such a better solution in order to make sure that, like you said, there's this acceptance. This is just there.

Nobody really thinks about the potential concerns that we're going to eliminate anyways, right? So.

Henriette Cornet (11:43)
would be like.

But so you mentioned Nat Ford and I really like his style. I found him very charismatic and for me, he's a very good example of extremely proactive local authority looking forward.

I don't know if technology always win. I'm not sure I would go along this line. I will have to interview him and ask him about this sentence and what he means with that. But you said it very well at the end It's about convenience, about comfort time, all this. What makes our life better? So I like to talk a lot about quality of life and technology. I think it can help if it's implemented in the right way. But yeah, let's stay in Jacksonville. What's your plan there? Tell us about the factory.

Alex Hansen (12:14)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm?

Henriette Cornet (12:25)
vision also of JTA, so Jacksonville Transportation Authority, what's the ambition and you have already signed some contract with them which is so promising.

Alex Hansen (12:35)
That's correct. Yeah. So JTA already had a pre-order of the first hundred vehicles. So the first hundred whole on urban's going to go to Jacksonville. Yeah. So this is of course a huge step, I think also in terms of trusting in us right now. I mean, I just mentioned we have prototypes right now on proving grounds, but having the confidence and the trust in us as a company and everything that comes with it in order to have already.

Henriette Cornet (12:41)
Congratulations.

Alex Hansen (12:58)
made such a new step, right, is of course very, very positive for us. And of course this also comes with the fact that we have with JTA, which is in our point of view the most innovative transportation authority in the United States to have autonomous vehicles integrated into their public transportation systems already. Of course we have a dialogue with them for several years already, you know, so and just because of the fact that

Henriette Cornet (13:16)
This is great.

Alex Hansen (13:23)
how they drive this type of innovation.

I mean they also of course have collaborations with local colleges to think about any kind of service and any kind of educating people for this new type of technology. So we talk about workforce development.

But of course, we also want to point out here, we understand the U.S. regulatory compliances and in order to be build America and buy America compliant, there was no question to have a plant in the United States and then ultimately it ended in Jacksonville. And the big benefit with that is of course, Benteler coming back to them and their automotive division, I mean, they are also very well established in the United States.

Plants in South Carolina, in Michigan. of course to use also their local experience when it comes to hiring for the plant. There's a lot of benefits that we just see having our plant of course in the United States and then in particular in Jacksonville, Florida.

Henriette Cornet (14:19)
and the dimensioning of this plant, can you tell us? So I read it's built or like it's dimensioned for ⁓ 5,000 vehicles annually, is it correct?

Alex Hansen (14:26)
No.

That's

correct. I mean, we talk about a total space, I think, is 500,000 square feet. Yeah, so, and it's located north of Jacksonville. And then like you said, we are gonna have an annual production of 5,000 units, but this is only for a one shift operation. So of course, coming back to scalability and everything that needs to be prepared for that.

If we go into a two shift operation, if we talk about maybe some efficiency gains, adjustments on shift schedule and so on, mean there is then of course also a production volume up to 12,000 units at some point possible. So we definitely understand having this location is a big decision maker and there's a hundred million dollar investment behind that. But then of course you want to make sure you're not just ready for the first two or three years, you want to be ready really for a long term. And I think this is what we have accomplished here.

Henriette Cornet (15:18)
Yeah, that's what I love about that.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And I guess also what a topic that we can briefly mention is there is for now still a cap on the number of vehicles that can go on the road per vehicle type per year. It's in the U.S., it's 2,500, correct? So you are already planning.

long term but the standards in the U.S. and all the discussions surrounding the standardization etc will have to progress so that this cap is not there anymore. And I know because I have similar discussions in Europe and Europe wants to remove this cap by, in Europe it's different, it's 1500 per vehicle per type.

Alex Hansen (16:01)
thousand yes

Henriette Cornet (16:02)
and they want to remove it next year actually, which will open the market and it will be super interesting to see what happens there once this limit is not there anymore. So can you say a word about that?

Alex Hansen (16:12)
Yeah, absolutely. So now we are very aware about this and I can say that we have good discussions in Washington with NHTSA, who is of course in charge for any type approval and requirements and homologation. And this limitation to 2500 units that can be sold in a 12 months period, that comes of course with the fact that we ask for an exemption of the current FMVSS standard, right? So we have filed our Part 555 exemption.

And right now there is next steps. So NHTSA came back to us with a lot of questions in order to get a better understanding of our technology. How do we mitigate risk? What are the protocols here? And we are in the process of course right now to have this with our engineering team answered and documented. And then from there, of course, we're going to submit this and yeah, we see of course the opportunity to sell these 2,500 vehicles when we start our production in...

the third quarter of 2027. So there's still some time, but within the task that we have, of course, we need that time to get every answers provided and or every question answered.

We see ourselves of course from utilization point of view with the given first capacity, we see ourselves in a good position to have of course the market demand covered. So from that point of view of course we considered all these things. So the chicken or egg question, supply versus demand.

Henriette Cornet (17:31)
I love that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that you are seeing big already, so to say, you are just dimensioning everything for big and you start after it will go step by step. And I love also that you mentioned the demand. I think that's a reason actually I wanted to have this talk with you today because my...

client base at Urban Innovate are local authorities, transit authorities. And I'm following in parallel from my work in the U.S., I'm following discussions in Europe where they want to create a coalition for local authorities that they should...

be louder, they should be clearer in terms of demand. What is the demand? What do they want for the transit system? And I would love to similar conversation here in the U.S. because so far talking with transit agencies, we have the example that you mentioned, JTA, have, I know also CCTA here in California, there are some agencies here and there very much proactive looking forward et cetera. But many agencies are struggling so much with ⁓ budget, with the budget.

Alex Hansen (18:29)
Mm-hmm.

Henriette Cornet (18:32)
in San Francisco is a good, in the Bay Area, it's a good example of a lot of struggle, a lot of restrictions, and they have to cut the budget in a lot of places. And sometimes I feel they don't really see how automation and this type of services can really help them because they see, you know, they have other struggles happening.

The reason I really wanted you to be here with us today is to tell them that actually it should be also considered that this technology can help them in their struggles. You see a bit where I'm coming from, so how can we make sure that transit agencies know that your product, your type of product could be helpful for them?

Alex Hansen (19:12)
Good points here that you already brought up and to of course complement to that. think we understand the challenge that we have and of course with a lot of conferences or opportunities to speak, to educate transportation authorities or other institutions. for example, with APTA right? So, I mean, we use the opportunities to speak, to have an open dialogue, to

educate them about our plans to educate what we are trying to do. There's also the ACES coalition, right, where we of course with our primary partners like beep and Benteler Mobility, where we have a lot of panel discussions where we just bring this more to everybody's attention. Of course, everything will be easier in the near future when we have a proof of concept, when we have our first prototypes in the United States, when we invite people to our

activities that we have here in the U.S. And for example, Jacksonville will be a significant role here where we have also vehicles then operating. So of course, we understand that this is a big step and it requires maybe some very forward thinking. it's not just the innovation, but when we look into other reasons like

total cost of ownership. So I mean in comparison to current existing solutions in the long run we see ourselves of course being definitely a better solution there. If you think about sustainability, I mean having our vehicles integrated fully electric, so of course also an important part of that and that is something that helps here as well. I know that of course a lot of people when they hear about us and we have first discussions they think about

that we take jobs, But it's actually the opposite. mean, we have good conversations about the workforce development that comes with it. And let's be honest, right? There is a huge driver shortage in the United States as well as in Europe. So there will be at some point, with age, there will be the situation that you have a significant gap and you don't have the drivers anymore to provide any type of public transport.

Henriette Cornet (20:59)
and you have to cut the services. And yeah, that would be dramatic

and the solution can help there.

Alex Hansen (21:05)
Yeah, exactly. Right. And I think it's important now to start things to not have this gap. So to really come up with a solution to fulfill it. And of course, autonomous driving technology is here something that definitely is very practical solution when it comes to that.

Henriette Cornet (21:21)
And since we are talking about that, What would be the first use cases you would advise an authority or local agency to start with, so to say.

Alex Hansen (21:26)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I mean, of course, we understand that there's specifically with the increase of technology, there is a couple of options here. with our form factor and the purpose-built design that we have, I think we see ourselves first of all in two major use cases applicable. Of course, we can talk about line operation. Yeah, that's one. Yeah, so just of course, the usual fixed route where you might have right now.

other solutions that are not fully occupied, where you maybe with our smaller form factor are completely sufficient when it comes to passenger capacity and maybe doing the simple math, maybe you can get two Holon urbans instead of a different solution. So you can change the headway. You can make maybe the frequency in urban areas much, much, much more flexible. But then of course, specifically in collaboration with our fleet management,

Provider like like beep for example, right? We see of ourselves also at some point being very capable to have an on-demand solution. Yeah, so but then of course also not being a competitor to the ride hailing providers, right? So our solution is rather in the right pooling sector and there of course We see ourselves really as the solution to complement with existing solutions, right? So if we can go down to the suburban areas and bring people maybe to

train stations to certain bus stations and increase the ridership. To definitely utilize the given capacity that is there right now, I think we did a phenomenal job and we all can coexist.

Henriette Cornet (22:56)
Yeah, that's great. mean, that's really what I can see where this type of vehicles and services would be super useful. The first last mile is always a huge problem in many, many, many cities that are not perfectly covered. Or as you said, having buses and I speak for me where I live here in San Francisco, where there is the BART, there is the tram that work

Alex Hansen (23:08)
Mm-hmm.

Henriette Cornet (23:18)
very nicely and I really enjoy the system. But for example, for BART, it's a 20 minutes walk over a hill, you know, the hills of San Francisco. And I'm always thinking, ah, a shuttle an autonomous shuttle just to go to the BART station would be a dream. And the bus that ran maybe empty most of the time, et cetera. And so yeah, I can see that a product like that would be fantastic to have. Even as you say, starting on fixed route is not a bad thing. I mean, it doesn't have to be directly like super

Alex Hansen (23:32)
Mm-hmm.

Henriette Cornet (23:47)
on-demand door-to-door there are steps that are already extremely useful for everybody ⁓ doing that.

Alex Hansen (23:53)
You know?

Henriette Cornet (23:54)
Yeah, maybe along this line a little bit because you mentioned ride hailing services and this will be kind of a closing question. As I mentioned in my introduction, when we think about U.S. and I think even in the U.S. as themselves, when we hear autonomous vehicles, we think robotaxi or autonomous ride hailing services. So how do you deconstruct that?

How would Holon manage to deconstruct that and really overcome a misconception that autonomous vehicles are ride-hailing services? How do we work on that? And I'm happy to help, and I'm here exactly for this reason, to help show that the technology is actually broader than just ride-hailing services. What's your view?

Alex Hansen (24:28)
Mm-hmm.

I agree, but I think one of the big aspects specifically if we want to compare ourselves to what is already out there is of course that we have a form factor that is inclusive. So I mean if you talk about anything that comes of course with passengers with disabilities, so I think then we also have a different approach. So I mean our vehicle will be fully ADA compliant. We're talking with suppliers of course in order to make sure that everything that it...

bus driver does right now, of course, will be somehow covered through technology. I mean, somehow, of course, in a way that it is fully compliant and safe. But of course, if you think about a wheelchair passenger today, what options are there, right? I mean, of course, the classic bus solution, but then any kind of paratransit options, which is also, of course, great.

But we did actually a lot of user clinics already with focus groups in the United States, in Europe. when we talk about this, I mean, we have a couple of tasks here for us, right? We want to understand acceptance, but we want to have also their feedback. What is a good solution for them that really makes sense? And then we get a lot of feedback that just says, guys, this is amazing. This gives me really the...

feeling that I'm independent and that I can use mobility without any assistance, without any help. So I think this is one of the big differentiator. And of course, this is great to see when these things work out. And of course, also with the fact that if we want to be an attractive solution for these transportation authorities out there, this is the no-brainer that we of course must have a provider solution there. I mean, if you look into robotaxis,

The thing is, I would say is, it doesn't take the density out of the cities, right? I think what is the average ridership per Uber? 1.4 passengers, right? So of course we have a capacity up to 15 passengers and with all right pooling and line operation capabilities, I think this is where you really get into the situation where you take out the density out of the cities and this is what we want, that's what we want to achieve.

Henriette Cornet (26:29)
the congestion with

a positive impact on congestion, less cars on the road, etc. And less car dependency as well. think the way I work now with the topic of car dependencies to show that the more choices you have, the more independence you can get. If you are just captive to your cars, kind of not something we wish for people and I don't wish for myself.

Alex Hansen (26:35)
Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Henriette Cornet (26:57)
I think that was great. I hope everybody got a better understanding on your product, on your services, on your vision, what's next. So I suppose we all have to book a travel to Jacksonville for 2027, correct?

Alex Hansen (27:12)
Correct.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're to have, of course, a groundbreaking ceremony very soon. And then, of course, there will be a plant opening ceremony.

So yeah, there's tons of things that we are happy to share and to just build up this confidence and to trust that we have of course more vehicles out there when we are ready for it.

Henriette Cornet (27:33)
Fantastic. Great, great, great. And I hope this episode will help everybody to understand better what you are up to. Exciting times coming, and I wish you best luck, and I'm looking forward to further development. Thanks a lot, Alex.

Alex Hansen (27:46)
Thank

you very much, appreciate it.